Holistic Approach

My situation is similar to the poster here: http://www.nihongoperapera.com/node/57

I am Japanese but I grew up with an almost non-existent comprehension of my mother tongue. Because I was exposed to Japanese on and off at a young age, I retained some receptive bilingualism in that I can seemingly understand some spoken Japanese.

Also, under certain circumstances I can rapidly achieve some oral fluency, but there is no structure to what I already know of the Japanese language. In other words, some parts of the language already come naturally (and are basically completely internalized) while other parts are merely mechanically understood (and I fear, at risk of atrophying away unless I take steps to seriously learn Japanese).

For example I learned hiragana when I was young, so when I try to read a sentence, the hiragana will read easily, naturally. But katakana, which I learned when I was older, reads more artificially for me. As if my neurons are still forming synaptic connections while I am reading. Kanji is, peh, for all intents and purposes I know no Kanji. I tried learning the Joyo Kanji out of Tuttle's "A Guide to Reading & Writing Japanese"; I made it up to the 80th character I believe but then could not study the characters regularly so I forgot them.

Also, with regards to speaking, I have a basic understanding of what 'sounds' right (this is how I know to organize my attempts at speech into Subject Object Verb) but this intuition falters quite a bit.

Apologies for the soliloquy above, but I wrote it to put into perspective what I feel I need now in order to learn the language.

1) A long-term outlook on what I will/should do. Languages have a reading, speaking and writing component. It seems like the reading and writing go hand in hand, but it is a vicious cycle with japanese because of the immense number of chinese characters you need to know. What should I focus on first? Writing? Reading? Speaking?

The reason I ask is because in the review of "Remembering the Kanji," it is suggested that the method may be useless because Heisig's style attempts to teach the characters without correlating them to some practical use--such correlation being necessary for a student to feel like he/she is "progressing." But, could Heisig's style be better for someone in my position with some hashed out rudimentary understanding of writing, reading and speaking?

2) I am interested in what kaeru thinks about the critical period hypothesis and how it impacts language learning. The critical period hypothesis was made with regards to learning your first language, but some aspects of the CP hypothesis have been carried over to second language learning. In particular, that if you attempt to learn a second language after a critical period (i.e. after puberty) that your brain chemistry will have changed in such a way as to compromise efficient language learning. The most apparent consequence being that adults who attempt to learn a second language rarely make it to native level (of course, some do, just not many).

Do you find that this is the case? What suggestions do you have for an adult learner to increase his chances at reaching fluency. (After all, it is supposed to be my mother tongue, and my motivation for wanting to learn it now is a sense of incompleteness not being able to speak Japanese fluently).

Thank you for your time.

2) Well, it depends on what

2) Well, it depends on what you mean by fluency. If you mean being able to grasp the most subtle nuances and write poetry, perhaps the critical period hypothesis has some merit. But if you simply want to read graduate level material, I think that's something achievable by anyone who wants to work at it.

1) Why are you learning Japanese? A sense of incompleteness is probably not enough. I think the most important thing in language learning is to have a clear goal. Saying 'I will learn all of the kanji' or something is probably a bad example of a goal, since most people are easily excited by such an idea but after some number of kanji think 'Why the heck am I doing this?' and then quit.

If you look at a book, though, and say, 'Someday I'm going to read this without a dictionary,' I think you're off to a better start. But you still have to be very motivated.

Japanese isn't particularly easy for anyone to learn. In your case, though, it should be a little easier than most. But you'll still have to work very hard to get to fluency. It doesn't sound like that's something you're necessarily convinced that you want to do.

I'll be writing more about this in a big update to the site soon. But for now, I just want to say, unless you have a very clear understanding of why you want to go to all of this trouble to learn Japanese fully-- and it will be a lot of trouble-- you likely won't make it. But if you're seriously motivated, and you study consistently, it won't be that hard-- just time-consuming.

Here's the question to ask yourself- 'What do I want to do with my Japanese?' And then do that. Don't spend half a year doing Heisig or some other nonsense first. If you want to read a book, read books. If you want to give speeches, start writing speeches. Just start doing whatever it is that you want to do. Of course, you will need to do a lot of studying as you go along. But there's no need to cram a bunch of kanji that you aren't sure you'll need, just for the purpose of being complete.

Regards,
Kaeru

Hello Kaeru, Thank you for

Hello Kaeru,

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I mentioned 'feeling incomplete' because that is the general feeling I have but it is not merely regret. It stems from specific things that I in my old age wish to do, but can't, because I am not fluent in Japanese. For example, whenever I visit my relatives in Japan, I can only converse with them in broken Japanese, and I would like to be able to hold a conversation with them where it is an exchange of ideas, instead of the one-sided interaction that I can only experience now (as I mentioned, I can usually understand what they are saying, but my responses are broken at best, or simple "Hai" or "Iie" at worst). And, it's not just my relatives really, I would like to be able to have normal conversations with my friends who are Japanese, I would like to be able to go to the check-in counter at a Japanese Airport and not have to stammer and say, "Eiigo onegaishimasu," when the woman asks me for my reservation number.

As you hinted, I would also like to be able to read Japanese. Newspapers, websites, books ranging from novels to, hopefully graduate level books in the future. There is one that I have been interested in reading since I read about it a few years back called "The Dignity of s State," or "Kokka no Hinkaku." It touches on issues related to Yamato-Damashii and Japanese identity, things which I have become interested in in my adult age because of my lifelong search for a "personal identity" (my parents were expatriates and moved around a lot when I was younger and I was never able to live in Japan, consequently 1) I wasn't able to learn Japanese fluently and 2) I never felt at home in the countries we lived in, but I also never felt Japanese either).

I originally detailed this in my first post, but removed it all because personal stories like this are a dime a dozen on the internet, and I wanted to get straight to the point. But hopefully, now that I have included it here it provides some more perspective on my situation and reiterates my genuine interest in learning the language.

Unfortunately, I cannot articulate a specific, narrow reason for wanting to learn Japanese, so I don't know where to start. I mean, I will start anywhere, but I had a feeling (confirmed by your post) that there is an efficient way to progress through the language (e.g. spend more time learning the kanji once you have an intermediate/advanced knowledge of the language). It is this optimal, efficient order to learning the language which I would like to learn more about.

The problem with a collegiate or commercial program I feel is that they must keep the class dynamic in mind, and must balance the abilities and expectations of multiple students. Thus, such courses are usually try to tackle too many aspects of the language at once (reading, writing and speaking, as opposed to just speaking, for example). The class must also pace itself to keep student progression on a rough bell curve, something that the individual self-study student shouldn't be held back by.

I think I will take a break from typing now, sorry for the long post.

Well, in that case, I'd

Well, in that case, I'd start with conversation first. It's faster to learn, it's easier to learn, and the payoff will probably be greater, since speaking to family is immediate but learning from books will take much more time.

The problem with self study for speaking is that you don't talk to yourself. The suggestions on this website are mainly useful for becoming literate. I would strongly consider classes or tutoring for speaking; even if they are a relatively low level, having a teacher to practice with can do a lot to help you that will take much longer if you do it alone.

This assumes that you don't live in Japan now. If you do live in Japan currently, like me, you can probably do speaking without a teacher too, since you can practice on everyone around you.

Cheers,
Kaeru

Thank you. Unfortunately I

Thank you. Unfortunately I do not live in Japan. I do get to visit once a year, but that's about it. I can force my dad to speak to me in Japanese when we talk on Skype though, that should help a bit. I also have some Japanese friends here, so I will try to engage them in conversation more--which I have been doing already, it's just that our schedules don't match up so I do not see her often.

I will consider the classes, at the very least it might put me in touch with a teacher who I can engage in conversation as well.

I have also been looking at the Pimsleur CDs--is it true that the FBI and CIA use them to train their employees?
But, phew, they are expensive.

Speaking of CDs, or language software, what is your opinion (if any) on the method used by Rosetta Stone? I briefly messed around with the French demo software last year and their method seems to be 'logically' sound. Instead of trying to force straight rote memorization, they try and emulate how children first develop language: through direct association with objects, as opposed to a Language 1 -> Language 2 correlation (i.e. translation method, I guess).

Again thank you for your guidance.

Rosetta Stone is ok. I

Rosetta Stone is ok. I haven't used it seriously, but my friends who have used it liked it enough. It's not going to solve all your problems, but it will help.

Pimsleur is actually rather good, if you can follow their method and listen to one lesson every day (or every other day, or every few days). Although branches of the government may use them as starters, even the advanced Pimsleur conversations are too basic for, say, spies I think.

But, try getting Pimsleur from your local library. You can save a lot of money, and you can benefit from the great program. I don't know if it's worth $500, but it's definitely worth a trip to the library.

Cheers,
Kaeru

Strange, I thought I posted

Strange, I thought I posted my reply but it didn't (I wasn't stuck on the post preview either).

But I posted to say thank you for your response. I was not able to find Pimsleur at my local library, but the one I went to is a branch. Not sure where a big library is but I will try and find one. My school's library just has law books, so they didn't have pimsleur either.

I also asked whether you had maybe found recent resources, online and free preferably, that may help.

I have a few friends who are Japanese, and I can force my father to type and chat with me in Japanese over Skype, so I can start to work on conversation.

I did find this interesting site though:
http://lang-8.com/

You try and use whatever language you're studying, native speakers respond and correct your grammar, and so on.

That site is an interesting

That site is an interesting idea. It could certainly help with daily conversation. Of course, for formal writing and things just having a native speaker isn't necessarily much help, but it could be a good place to start.

If you're looking for online, free listening practice, you can try downloading Japanes podcasts from Apple's iTunes. There are several "learning Japanese" podcasts, but in my experience most of these are very basic and the quality is uneven. But, if you just download some actual Japanese programming related to something you're interested in you might see good results.

If your Japanese level isn't yet at the level of listening to the podcasts/radio programs only in Japanese, I don't really know what the best way to get it up there would be. I had taken a few classes in Japanese in college, so I don't have any experience with that problem.

Regards,
Kaeru

Thank you for the

Thank you for the recommendation. I'll check out the podcasts. I predict that I will be able to grasp the gist of what is being said, but 1) lack of familiarity with certain words and 2) inability to distinguish separate words from each other (ties into the first problem) will be my biggest problems. But yeah, i'll definitely check them out.

I have also slowly started looking at some kanji in conjunction with my use of Lang-8. (Kanji for the words which I know, but whose kanji I do not know, for example). I also looked at the 214 bushou/radicals and identified the ones on the joyo list. I figure those characters would be a good place to start. I know you recommended taking up kanji a little later when my grammar is more solidified, but I figure why leave it all for later.

I will let you know how it goes.

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